Gerard Baden-Clay Murder Trial – Day 14 – 2nd July, 2014



Day 14



Wednesday, 2nd July, 2014.




“I just wanted sex” – Gerard Baden-Clay

“I didn’t love my mistress” – Gerard Baden-Clay

 Allison Baden-Clay, Gerard Baden-Clay and Toni McHugh



GBC is in the witness box, waiting for the jury.

A short delay for legal discussion.  Jury is entering court.


GBC is being asked about contact between Allison and Toni and if Allison had his phone each night (The Crown is trying to rattle….yeah).


Fuller, “It was not an option for Toni to not go to the real estate conference on the 20th.  You didn’t tell police you had spoken to Toni the afternoon before you reported Allison missing.”

GBC “It didn’t enter my mind to tell police about my conversations with Toni, I just wanted to find Allison.”

Fuller, “You had set rules with Toni to make sure Allison didn’t know you were communicating.  At no stage after you dealt with police on the morning of the 20th did you disclose to your family about Toni McHugh.”

GBC, “I told my family after someone in the media said that they were running a story on my affair.  I told police about the affair, I didn’t anticipate they would tell the media, but they did.  I can’t remember if I spoke to police after they’d spoken to Toni.  I answered every question the police asked.”

Fuller, “You refused to give them a statement.”

GBC, “I answered that question.  They asked me to provide a statement, my answer was n.”  I believe I spoke to homicide.  I didn’t know what CIB meant, I didn’t know what a crime scene was.”

Edit – GBC is answering the same today as he did yesterday.  Please, he doesn’t know what a “crime scene” is?  That WILL HAVE to go against him.

GBC, “I was thankful to police who were dealing with the investigation, they seriously committed resources to it.  Police probably kept in contact every day and were at first very responsive.”

Fuller, “I suggest that police were in contact with you every day.”

GBC, “Once a day wasn’t enough, I was desperate for information from the police.”

Edit – and yes we know why……

GBC, “There wasn’t anything to stop me from talking to the police, other than the advice of my lawyer.  I met with my lawyer on that first night.”

Fuller, “Your first call to Allison was at 6.32am on the morning she went missing.  Your first call to your parents’ address was at 6:44am.  Concerned enough to call your parents?”

GBC, “That is correct.”

Fuller, “Which of Allison’s friends did you call at that time of the morning?”

GBC, “None.  Her best friend lived beyond walking distance, it was a possibility she had walked to my parents at Kenmore.”

Edit – rubbish, another furphy – they are too far away, much too far away for a walk, especially for someone who walks 1/2 kilometre up the road on a flat surface, then turns around again.  What rubbish!


Fuller, “Why did you take the Captiva instead of your own Prado, which was in the way and parked in an easier spot?”

GBC, “The Prado is a bigger car, and had been in an accident.



Edit – so his wife is missing, and the above ding stopped him rushing into the easiest car, to get her in case she had fallen and hurt herself.  Really?

Fuller, “There wasn’t significant damage to the Prado, you’d been driving it since the incident.  I suggest that the Captiva had been reversed in when you took it.”

GBC, “That isn’t true.  I first noticed the toys in the back of the Captiva on Friday morning when I took it to look for Allison.”

PHOTOGRAPH – Prado with panel damage, it is part blocking the driveway.

GBC agrees tha there was nothing stopping him from driving the Prado.

Fuller, “Did you  place the toys in the back of the Prado to make it look normal?”

GBC, “They would be unusual items to put in there to look normal.”

Edit – surely he is irritating the jury?

Fuller, “Why didn’t you call Allison’s parents when she went missing?”

GBC, “I called them later on, I thought she’d gone for a walk.”

Fuller, “You didn’t call them at 9.30am.”

GBC, “Yes, after I had been interrogated by the police for a couple of hours.”

Fuller, “You called your own friends first before calling Allison’s friends.”

GBC agreed that he was not prevented from making any calls when he was speaking with police that morning.

Fuller, “You took work calls that morning while speaking to police.  As the morning progressed you became more concerned about the nature of the police questions.”

GBC, “No. My father and sister became concerned about the questions, but I wasn’t.”

Fuller, “Why didn’t you let her parents know as the questioning continued?”

GBC, “I didn’t that is when I phoned them.”

Fuller, “Did you think to call Toni to see if she had contacted Allison?”

GBC, “I didn’t even think about it.  That morning seemed to travel very quickly.”

Fuller, “Police were called at 7.15am.  Police arrived at 8.00am, Allision was more than an hour overdue.”

GBC, “I can’t remember what time Allison was supposed to leave for work, it was 7:00 or 7:30am.”

Fuller, “For Allisoon to not have come home, was significant.  She was normally very punctual.  Police had been at the house for an hour and a half before you called Allison’s parents.  Why did you ring your friends ahead of her friends?”

GBC, “I honestly can’t remember the thought process.  I called the Christs because the children were having a sleepover.  I wanted them to know she was missing.”

Edit, the above doesn’t sit with me as true.

Fuller, “You had no anticipation that she wasn’t coming home, did you?”

GBC, “If she was found and was in hospital, I needed to let them know.”

Fuller, “So you were planning ahead?”

GBC, “I rang the Cheesmans as I was supposed to go around the prepare for their open house that day.”

Fuller, “So that was about managing the business?”

GBC, “I was concerned about Allison, but had to manage a business too.”

Fuller, “Why did you phone the Crannas?”

GBC, “I don’t know, possibly because he was close by.”

Edit – GBC wanted an audience to full sorry with him.

Fuller is asking about the couple’s insurance and superannuation policies as there were discussions on reducing them.

Fuller is asking GBC about phoning Allison’s life insurance on 1st May, the day she was found.

Fuller, “How did you find out a body had been found?”

GBC, “I was at the office and a media report came through.  I called my lawyer when I heard, we met in the city and police came to my barrister’s office.   Police confirmed to me that the body was Allison’s.”

Fuller, “You are confident that police confirmed it was Allison?  Didn’t they tell you that it possibly was Allison or likely Allison?”

GBC, “I was told definitely”.

Fuller, “When you visited the doctor for your scratches, why didn’t you show her the rest of the injuries?”

GBC, “Maybe the second doctor asked me if I had any other concerns.”

Edit – He doesn’t answer anything directly, what a sleaze.

Fuller, “The first photos police took were of just your face.  Why didn’t you tell the police about the scratches on your chest?”

GBC, “They were self inflicted, it just didn’t seem relevant.”

Fuller, “You went to a second doctor that afternoon and showed her the injuries on your chest, as the direction of the lawyer.”

GBC, “I did give my business card to the first doctor I visited to help her find a new house.”

Fuller is asking GBC about the money he owed and the interest he had to pay.

Fuller, “Allison had taken the role of someone you had been paying $100,000.00.”

GBC, “I was not paying Allison a salary.”

Fuller, “A separation with Allison would have had a significant financial impact on you and the business.”

GBC, “Yes.  You are asking a lot of hypothetical questions, I have not ever thought about in detail.”

Fuller, “You had told Toni you would separate.”

GBC, “Yes and I told you that was a lie.”

Edit – one lie many lies – that is a liar!

Fuller, “As of 19th April, you were indeed under a number of pressures.

Fuller, “You were under pressures from your wife?”

GBC, “How do you mean?  I want to clarify with regard to the conditions that Allison had placed on me.  The tracking app was my idea”.

Fuller, “You know how to turn the tracking app off.”

GBC, “Both Allison and I knew how to turn it off.  Allison went through a period of nine years with hardly an intimacy.  There were a number of people he went to for sex and we’ve talked about some of them.  I spoke to Allison about Toni, but not about any of the other women I had a relationship with.”

Fuller, “That is what the start of 2012 was all about – You and Toni organising to be together.”

GBC, “That is not true.  We wanted to put the past behind us, with regard to counselling.”

(Rattling chains :D)

Fuller, “You wanted to put the past behind you.  You were living a double life, weren’t you?”

GBC, “No, I did not believe I was living a double life at that stage.”

Fuller, “The facade that was Gerard Baden-Clay would fall if Toni McHugh had confronted Allison at the conference.  If Allison had found out that you had been seeing, and emailing Toni, you would be exposed.”

GBC, “Sorry is there a question there?”

Edit – what a &^%O

 Fuller, “You had sought Allison’s forgiveness, made promises to her, and then gone and done it again with the same woman. You had attended counselling, made promises, but your behaviour hadn’t changed at all.

GBC, “I had.”

Fuller, “Your business was failing, all things were coming together.  You killed your wife Mr Baden-Clay.”

GBC, “No I did not.”

Fuller, “You killed her, probably smothered her and she lashed out with her fingernails.  She grabbed your clothing, that is why you had the injury under your left shoulder.  You overpowered her very quickly, didn’t you?”

GBC, “I never overpowered her”.

Fuller, “Did her jumper come up as you struggled or when you dumped her in the creek?”

GBC, “Your suppositions are absurd.  I can’t answer them.

Fuller, “You put her body in the garden, in the leaves, you put her in the car.”

GBC, “I had nothing to do with anything”.

Fuller, “You dumped her body unceremoniously.”

GBC, “The suggestion I would leave my children alone for any time in the middle of the night is absurd, little alone to do the dastardly things you are suggesting.”

Fuller, “You loaded the toys in the back of the car, then cut yourself with a shaver at the bottom edges of the scratches.  You let police search the house because you knew there would be nothing they’d find.  You put on the facade of a worried husband then called a lawyer.”

Fuller, “Are you certain that you never told Allison she was going to run into Toni the next day?  Despite the flashbacks Allison had from seeing Toni?”


GBC, “I was never violent with my wife.”




GBC, “I had only been in an altercation twice.  Once as a ten year old standing up for a friend.  The second time was defending another friend from a bully when I was 12.  I hadn’t ever thrown a punch.  Allison and I argued like any couple but never raised voices.  Allison and I didn’t ever argue in front of the children.

PHOTOGRAPH – Floor plan of house.

GBC is discussing how sound travels.  If the girls made a sound, we could  hear it clearly through the house. GBC is talking about the age of the house and the building materials used.  One of the girls got up the night of 19th April after they had put them to bed.  Allison was on the couch. I did not hear any noises that night.

Byrne, “Please clarify what you meant when you admitted that you had deceived Allison for four years.”

GBC, “I deceived her and my family and friends by not telling them about my infidelities.  Deception is a strong word, rather I protected Allison by not telling people about her depression.

Edit –

GBC, “I deceived Toni by making her think that we had a future together.  I have no knowledge of criminal behaviour, or how police operate.  I just wanted police to be told the truth.  This is why I called Toni and asked her about talking to police, I told her to tell them the truth.  I had a number of infidelities over the years.  The difference was with Toni and I we worked together.  It wasn’t who I was brought up to be and I am very ashamed.  

That is when I was relieved when things ended with Toni.  I had no intention of telling Allison about the other women.  I didn’t want to jeopardise things.  I was with some of the other women for an extended period of time, many of them concurrent.

I answered a lot of Allison’s questions but there were times when I questioned her about the necessity.  The counsellor later explained that it was important for Allison to talk about it.  I could see it wasn’t helpful.  I liked Carmel Ritchie’s structure of the 15 minute sessions.”

GBC denies that Toni stayed at his house.  He said she visited and they had physical relations.

“I gave Toni a separation date I wouldn’t keep because I was worried about her mental strength.”

Edit, so it is fine to have “many,  numerous affairs” and to run down these women, yet, GBC says he worries about their mental state?  Which is it? 

GBC, “I wanted Toni to put me out of her life.  Some of the things I said and did were pretty naive and pretty stupid.  I had some hope Toni could move on and we’d have some sort of friendship in the distant future.  I’ve known Allison for 17 years, Toni for five.  I wasn’t worried about them both being at the conference as Allison was non-confrontational.  Allison could have been expecting Toni to be there anyway.

———— Edit – Yet – Allison confronted GBC on his affairs———

 GBC, “Toni did have a volatile nature but in a public environment was always able to control herself.  I really had no concern at all.  I had been given Allison’s journal.”

Photograph – Page of Allison’s journal.

GBC is being asked what a series of numbers mean.  He said that he doesn’t know.  He doesn’t know how long Allison had the journal, although some dates were a couple of years prior.  He said he doesn’t know where it was kept.





Defence witness Ashton Ward, managing director of Khemistry has taken the stand.

Mr Ward takes time lapse footage.  He placed a camera at Kholo Creek which was retrieved on 20th June, 2014.  Mr Ward is explaining how time lapse footage works.

FOOTAGE – Time lapse footage of the creek which shows the tide rising and falling.  Logs, leaves and other debris can be seen moving along the creek.

Fuller is asking about the timing of the time lapse footage.  Fuller says one second of the footage equals 75 minutes.  Fuller commented that Mr Ward had no idea what the area looked like in 2012 and there aren’t any markings on the footage to indicate where the body was.


Dr Michael Roberston, a forensic toxicologist has taken the stand.

Dr Robertson reviewed file documents from Allison’s post mortem.  Dr Robertson is talking about Sertralin, also known as Zoloft.  Seratonin is a mood altering chemical in the brain, Sertraline increases the levels of seratonin in the brain.  The levels of sertraline in Allison’s blood, stomach and liver are being discussed.  The average levels of Sertraline for someone taking  the drug would be .03 to .05mg per kg in the blood.

Dr Robertson said that “relative to clinical numbers” Allison’s reading was high at .059.

The judge is asking what the point of this comparison is, comparing Allison’s result with someone who is alive.  Mr Robertson said that the drug concentrations can both increase and decrease after death.  Drug concentrations redistribute.  Studies have shown areas like legs are less susceptible to redistribution.  Studies show that Sertraline doesn’t move much 24 to 48 hours after death.  Allison’s higher reading could be from redistribution or taking more of the drug.  The side effects from taking Sertraline could include anxiety, agitation, confusion, thermoregulation.

Another Seratonin Syndrome  is unusual behaviour and elevation of body temperature.  Suicidal ideation is another side effect that has cropped up from time to time.  Seratonin Syndrome happens when your seratonin levels are too high.  This can lead to increased agitation, unusual behaviours, confusion, problems with muscle control.  Studies show people on anti depressants have a higher risk of suicide.


Dr Robertson agreed that there were only trace levels of Sertraline in Allison’s stomach.  Dr Robertson agreed that due to the redistribution of the drug after death, it was possible that there wasn’t any Sertraline in Allison’s stomach at all.

Dr Robertson is discussing redistribution of the concentration of the drug after death.   Concentrations will increase in the central region of the body more so than peripheral that is the legs.  The study doesn’t mention how long people have been deceased.

Edit – this guy doesn’t seem to be very thorough….

Dr Robertson agreed it would be affected by how long the person had been dead and the position of their body.  Another study dealt with people who had been dead 24 to 48 hours.  Dr Robertson agreed that the people in the study had 20 fold concentrations in liver after 24 to 48 hours.  Allison’s liver was 10 fold.

Dr Robertson, “Broadly speaking, Sertraline is considered low toxicity.  The Sertraline in Allison’s liver is not consistent with an acute overdose leading to death.  I can’t completely explain the elevated levels of the drug in some parts of Allison’s body.”

Dr Robertson agreed that the levels in Allison’s body were not consistent with Sertraline related deaths.  Allison’s stomach contents were inconsistent with ingesting significant quantities of Sertraline before death.


Dr Mark Schramm has been called to the stand.

Dr Schramm is a psychiatrist with 20 years experience, a lot of his work is forensic psychology.

Dr Schramm has prepared a report based on Allison’s psychiatric and medical records.

Schramm, “My report was proof read and approved by a professor in psychology who specialises in suicide.  I have seen consultation notes, Allison’s GP file, psychiatrist notes, counsellor notes, autopsy report.  I have seen Dr George’s testimony as well as Ms Richie’s.  I don’t know whether Allison’ reaction to the anti-malaria medication is a red herring.  Allison seemed to complain of a depressed mood, self doubt, lack of confidence and anxiety.  Anyone can have panic attacks, anyone with anxiety is prone to them.”

Dr Schramm, “One study shows that 3.4% of people suffering from major depression will take their lives.”


Schramm, “It is not universal to leave a suicide note.  More than half do not.  Unfortunately suicide is a surprise, even in retrospect it is impossible to predict.  You should not assume that experts have the answers.  It is very much with psychiatry, people will assume we have a much greater power than we do to predict.  It is foolish to be completely confident that someone with a history of depression isn’t going to take their life.”

Edit -I don’t like this paid witness.  



“Dr Scam” agrees that none of the remarks he gave about depression and suicide relate to Allison, they are just general assessments.

Dr Scam is being asked about maternal attachment, if that would count against a suicide risk.

Dr Scam said if there was not a triggering event, that would also count against risk of suicide.

Dr Scam agreed that a person making short and long term plans would also be at lower risk of suicide, if the person making the plans had not yet made the decision to commit suicide.

Danny Boyle, “What if the person has been proactive in the past about seeking assistance?”

Dr Scam, “In general it lowers risk.  I did get a sense of Allison’s maternal attachment but I can’t recall where it was said.”

Dr Mark Schramm agrees that symptoms of depression can become worse during pregnancy.  Allison never reported any side effects from the anti depressants.  There was a sense that sometimes it took several months for Allison to respond to the medication.  She seemed to benefit from the antidepressants.

After 2003, suicide was never raised by any psychiatrists, psychologists or counsellors who consulted with Allison.

Dr Schramm said that  he hasn’t interviewed Allison or anyone else.

Dr Schramm said Allison suffered from major depression which is a major risk factor of suicide.  “One could imagine” the stresses in the marriage could have put Allison at risk of suicide.  He said that he has “no idea” but going on the Relationships Australia, this could have made things raw.

Edit – coulda, woulda, shoulda…….

Dr Schramm said that it could also have given her hope.  Dr Schramm said that of course depression is a factor for suicide.

Dr Schramm has finished.

Edit – Don’t let the door hit you on the way out (sorry everyone).


Justice John Byrne said that means all the evidence has been given.


















Mr Mum!

27.11.08 The past week I have been trying to do my best impersonation of my dear wife – and struggling!

Allison turned the big “four-o” earlier this year and to mark the occasion she and her best friend have taken a week off at the Golden Door health spa.

Whilst she has been enjoying the rest and quietude, I have been trying to manage the house and transport my three girls to all of their activities – and I am knackered!

It’s a bit of a cliché that most men have no idea how hard it is to run a household, and I thought that I was pretty in tune with the day-to-day routine, but I can honestly say that this week has given me a real insight into the challenges of managing a family. Waking up, getting dressed, having breakfast, making lunches, getting to school, collecting from school, bath, cook dinner, eat dinner, homework, teeth, bed! And that doesn’t include any extracurricular activities like ballet, swimming and music! And, I haven’t done any vacuuming, dusting, cleaning or a single load of washing!

In amongst all of this “domestic duty”, I’ve also been trying to squeeze in some work and assistance with running this business – look out for the two new properties coming to the market this week and the successful sales from last weekend too!

Despite these challenges (and the associated exhaustion!), I have enjoyed some wonderful times with my children both individually and collectively. Whether it be a few minutes playing in the park, a snatched moment whilst getting them ready for bed, or just the simple pleasure of talking about life whilst driving to and from school, kindy and a host of other activities!

The startling revelation personally, has been the realisation that I am NOT superman after all!

Yes, I think that I have managed (alright, “coped” is probably more accurate!) rather well this week (and I have only put the TV on once for “assistance”!), but it would be remiss of me not to mention the terrific support of my sister and friends who have been able to look after Ella (aged 2) during the day so that I can still work during school hours.

So, what’s the upshot of this week? Well, I certainly have a renewed respect for all of the hard work that goes into being a “homemaker”, and the pleasure of being able to spend some more quality time with my three beautiful girls. I’ll certainly be more understanding in the future when I come home from work and find that dinner isn’t on the table with my foot spa pre-warmed! Until next week…. Gerard Baden-Clay



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